Do you want to make a deal? Not every ultimatum in relationships has to do with marriage proposals and often some don't even have to do with the relationship at all. It's often a control issue and sometimes a self fulfilling prophecy or just a need for movement. By the time someone gets so emotional or fed up that they no longer feel in control the ultimatum becomes part of the process. I often wonder if the saying," be careful what you wish for" ever enters the mind during this time or is it all about getting what you think you really want? In a work environment that's difficult and people are no longer thriving at their job, I've watched ultimatum's come into play. I've listened to people not only willing to jeopardize their jobs but often consider making deals with people who are in positions to offer a hand but not necessarily the kind of hand you'd want to hold onto. In stressful times, one might even walk away from the very hand that feeds them while requesting very little and sell their soul to someone whose a wolf in sheep's clothing. So why when the path becomes unclear, uncertain and the future is cloudy, do we make deals and accept the ultimatum with those who we know in better days, we would have walked away from long ago? To some it's a sense of survival and a feeling that by actively choosing this, they have some control over it's outcome or will in time but in the current situation have none. In a marriage type ultimatum or business/relationship ultimatum the person dangling the line might be doing so just to see if the bait will be taken and then walk away anyway. It's not always to prove a point but often it's to validate what might have already been known and understood. When there's movement, options open and possibilities emerge. In some way this ultimatum and it's answer is a gift. Maybe you've heard the story before...someone wants something so bad but was told not now and then continues to push...when he/she finally gets their way, it becomes clear that this wasn't how it was supposed to go and possibly isn't right in the first place. You may look back and wonder if you should've, could've, would've...but you didn't, won't, and can't now. I have often thought about those that lost but truly won and those that thought they won in the ultimatum but truly lost.
This is for those struggling to make choices, thinking the grass would be greener, and wanting to stop working for the devil only to possibly trade him in for a different kind of evil. Ultimatums aren't usually my way of doing things but I understand why many use them. Sometimes I just express the options in a discussion and let the other person know that I'm thinking things over and assessing the situation. Discussions usually open up from there whether it be in business or in relationships.
Share your stories and ask away...
©2009 Savannah Jones
September 9, 2009
Deals/Ultimatums
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38 comments:
Savannah,
This is well thought out and careful in it's word choice. I think ultimatums should be done the same way. Thought out and careful with words. I use ultimatums when I know a woman doesn't want to lose me but won't let go of others. I don't get it in return because I don't deal with others when I date a woman.
Don't know which evil I could be in this story. The devil an old girlfriend knows or worse than the one she has now. I think she's trying to figure that out. While contemplating a return to a relationship with her I have been reliving some of the events that led to our end. I'd do it differently if given the chance. I hold no way of giving an ultimatum but she believes I will in time do that if she returns to me. I like what's written here about control and movement. My past girlfriend would create movement by raising the bar at all times with me and I returned the favor. No advice here in my comment but a question instead-- Were you ever so careful about your choices that you couldn't see the advantages down the road of making that deal and in the end happy that you gave up less with more freedom for more with less freedom to be you? If so, how did you handle that?
What do you think about ultimatums to men who won't give up past women? Do you think the men should give up these ladies from their past? You don't answer some of the comments about that kind of ultimatum - why?
A deal is a deal that two people agree to so how is an ultimatum like a deal? I showed this to my friend at work and she said it's because some people make a deal when taking the ultimatum and agreeing to it like in marriage. Is that how you mean this? I was told at my work to put up with something or leave. The guy knows I have no where to go right now but my friend just got a job somewhere else and is breaking contract to do it. The place I work isn't happy about it but because we were told put up or leave they are letting her break her contract. I'm confused what a deal and ultimatum is.
Finally someone agrees with me that when a woman ultimatums it isn't always about the problems in the relationships. I was given a marriage ultimatum and I asked my girlfriend how she felt about being with a man she had to ultimatum to get her to marry him. It didn't go over well but I didn't think it would. My feelings are this= an ultimatum is given when there's a dead end or someone is trying to flex some muscle because like my girlfriend, she felt powerless. I know she'll leave eventually but for now she's still getting over the shock that I won't marry her and I'll let her go. If you really want to marry someone and you really think this is what you want, you won't ultimatum.
off topic but do SOME single moms have men they call when it's just good time sex?
Second person:
I think anytime a person gives up on who she is, happiness becomes harder to achieve. I will turn this around however and ask you...Have you ever ultimatumed someone knowing she would become less of who she is in order for you to give her more of what you think is important; when really there's a middle ground compromise for both to attain and probably a better choice to keep the character of both parties in check? I ask this because sometimes in marriage ultimatums men and women are sometimes asking each other to give up a part of what makes them not only who they are but who they fell in love with in the first place. When you look at couples there's quite a mixture of personalities and what one lacks the other provides. But, to give up who you are in order to have something else...isn't really who you might be in the first place.
Savannah Jones
Third person:
I don't answer those questions because there is never enough information. These women may hold a place in this man's life that isn't a really a threat or the situation can be managed. I'm not big on keeping people around that may carry a torch for me when I know I can't return it but I've also been fortunate enough to keep possible past dating situations as current friends. I think there needs to be boundaries and understandings and if the problem were in reverse how would you handle it?
Savannah Jones
How's it like a deal...
Try letting this conversation ruminate and then decide. "Are you going to marry me or not? If you're not going to marry me, then I'm leaving. You can't have this both ways."
"Fine, you'll stay if I marry you? Then understand that I'm expecting ______, _____, (fill this part in). You do this and it's a deal. I'll marry you." It could even just be a simple, "fine I'll marry you if you stay."
In the situation at your work, the woman was given an ultimatum and then positioned herself for a deal to be made. It'a all about knowing your worth and in this case of your work, watching a person who thought he had control and decided to try and use it when he bullied and lost at it by the words he chose. His words in his ultimatum allowed your friend to be able to have the control and leave.
Savannah Jones
Sixth person:
Yes, some do.
Savannah Jones
I date a woman who won't commit to me. I know hard to believe but true. Women on here want commitment and I found the one that doesn't. I think she has a guy on the side for sex and doesn't want to make a commitment. A man would give up the other woman (booty call) if this was true in reverse. Any single people out there have advice.
Sixth Person
I have a man who is totally in love with me and another man who loves me but won't be faithful to me. I do all I can to keep him and try to get him to be faithful. The one that totally loves me isn't as interesting to me and doesn't take charge of anything. The other man makes things work and happen. What do I do? I know the guy is nice but I want the other one too.
there's this girl that I care about and she cares about me but can't "date" me bcause. I don't get the because part since I'm a black and white kind of thinker. Either you like me or you don't. I'm a simple man but not simple in the brain and I don't understand how you can have feelings for a person and not act on them or act on them occassionally but that's it? How does someone turn it on and off so easily?
Well Savannah, I don't know what to say to your response. I thought it over some and believe you have a good perception and perspective on ultimatums. I like that you don't believe in using that approach. I also like your feisty comment and rhetoric. I understand what you mean when you say a middle ground might be the way to go and would be nice for two people to come to agreement. I also have a respect for you saying for a person to give up who she is and what she believes in to have something that is only important to me, isn't being true to herself. Savannah, somethings in my life have played out in such ways as you mentioned and I've never understood how something with good intentions could go so South. An ultimatum has never been either of our styles and neither wants to give up who we are but there's a lot of good to be had in the deals.
Savannah,
My friend has a man that's crazy about her but the depth that she needs is in a man that hasn't been the best to her. She forgives too easily and loves with all she has. She's keeping herself where she needs to be which is a feat all together with this other man but for the one that's crazy about her, how do you tell him to dig a little deeper and show him this woman is more than he knows even though he's crazy for her and needs more depth? Have you ever wanted a friend to be happy who really deserves it and you think you can help? That's where I am right now with her.
Reading the comments about friends problems and wanting to tell - I don't think that's a good idea but I really understand. I have relationship problems but my friend is getting with a man that's not right for her. They like different things and he has an appreciation for her but I think he underestimates her and her ability. He has an ego issue or thinks he has the answers and no one else does. It's like he thinks he can do it all better than the rest of us. Problem - a man my friend left behind is on her level, culture, excitement, risk taking aspect and more. I come here looking for some ultimatum responses and found this and it's like my friend. I'm going to send her to see this. Can a guy write in and maybe have advice to my friend.
Can anyone explain to me what this "take charge" comment means? Why do so many women want a man who takes charge? I want to be in charge of the relationship so I don't understand this area. Please explain anyone, anyone please.
Savannah,
That conversation you depict in the response is so real. It's how most marriage ultimatums go. Does anyone really want to be married to someone who was feeling no way out when he said yes?
Take charge to me means someone who takes charge of planning for dates, takes charge of wishes and meeting needs, takes charge of anything that a woman mentions not nags about because a take charge kind of guy won't have to hear nagging because he took charge of it already.
Savannah and second comment guy,
Phrasing it the way Savannah did makes sense and you second comment guy gave away a little about yourself. You said that you want this woman to give up something to give you something that's important to only you. There's no middle in it. I'd like to hear the arguement that goes with someone giving up who she is a little bit or give up some freedom for something that's important to only you. I'd like to ask a lot of people to do this but it's not a realistic thing to do.
sometimes I wonder why a woman I know is with a man that has nothing to offer her. I know the man not well but know him. He's in a different world than reality. He muddles through it and thinks in his reality he's the only one who knows how to do this in life. This = parenting, divorcing, getting along with ex, and more stuff. He says yeah yeah yeah when you're in the middle of talking, he also says right right right when you're in the middle of talking. I know more than one person like this but this man I went on a couple of dates with about four months ago and that's what he did. I had a chance to meet a woman who he is with in a weird way and I asked her if he did this and she just smiled. I take it that was yes. I know more than one person who knows this man and I met him online. Each person says he does the whole yeah yeah right right interruption stuff when with him. I liked the guy but got dumped after the second date. It didn't "feel" right. He really has a thing for another woman and he shouldn't be online looking. Someone who is like can he be a narcissist or anti social behavior or just a man who is insecure and impatient when others are speaking? I know the one woman had a boyfriend who was really patient and understanding. A mutual friend was telling me that a lot of people thought that guy would be hard to deal with because of his importance in level of job but the woman told me he was easier than the man I met a couple of times. I don't want to date that guy but I've never had that happen before by what seemed to be a nice man who really thought only he had the answers but hadn't lived much of the problems yet.
hope you'll answer
For what it's worth, I had been given some advise a long time ago. If someone gives you an either/or proposition, take the "or" every time.
I dragged my feet in a relationship long time ago. I wasn't ultimatumed but I was asked in a direct way, "do you think you'll ever ask me to marry you?" I felt ultimatumed because there wasn't anything prefacing this question such as, it doesn't matter and I'll still be with you anyway but wanted to know if...
The woman was careful to preface her statements and questions so there was no mistaking the meaning behind it. This one time it didn't happen- no preface. I took it as an ultimatum and so I chose no when really I wanted to marry her but not then. It was over and I have many regrets about how I handled that. If men feel their back is against the wall they take the "or" it isn't always the best answer and certainly should not be a way of philosophy when ultimatumed and dealing with intimate relationships that really matter. I believe this woman I'm talking about wanted to know if she was wasting her time and simply put, wanted a timeframe. I had one in mind and should have shared that with her. Instead I felt threatened and told her no and watched her pack her things and leave. I wanted to stop her but I still felt there wasn't anything prefacing this. Later when we talked - months and months later, she said if she had known I wanted to marry her and had a timeframe in mind, she would have stayed. All I had to do was say yes I plan on marrying you and you're the only one I want. All seems so easy now and one word ended it all. There's no happy ending to this story except follow your heart and not your fears or sometimes what works in business doesn't work in love and keep that in mind. We are willing to give up money and opportunity but not so willing to give up on love so why treat it the same?
People get caught up in power and that's when the mistakes are made. When I get ultimatumed in work or play, I feel powerful. I get to look someone in the eye and say you don't scare me and so I won't do what you ask and we'll just see how that goes. Truth -- I feel like I'm now powerful and took away the other persons power. Result -- I didn't get what would be best for me, and neither did the other person. It becomes a loss/loss.
The power of ultimatums is what I like about what you wrote. It isn't always about the relationship question but sometimes about power and control. It isn't always about marry me either. I've ultimatumed and said I want to marry a woman but I need something more. I hoped she give it to me. She left instead. She didn't want to but she did and I hurt her in her words," by stringing it out and dragging my feet when I knew this wasn't enough for me." I'm the one left hanging and she has a new beau who worships her.
Who ever gave advice to take the "or" how's that been workin for ya? I can't imagine very well.
Savannah,
How can a situation be "managed" when dealing with other women in a man's life? The guy I'm with, has women all over that he still has ties with. I could spend a weekend away with him and still he'd contact the other women in his life. He finds a way through the computer, mobile, or text. He keeps them all close by like an emergency kit. I deal with it because I don't think any of the women really want him. I think each woman knows he does this and have had it. He's charming and uses time away to get to you and it works. His old girlfriend works in the same industry as I do and we talk. She talks to me, and she talks to him all of the time. I had her text him in front of me and he responded pronto. I know you must be thinking get the hell out of there but how do you know that this isn't something that's "managable" like you said. Maybe you didn't mean it like this but so far it's managable but I see him click the screen when I walk in the room and I know he's chatting with someone. My ex husband used to text in front of me to another woman and I let it go on because I thought it was nothing. They were setting up meeting times and hotel places to see each other. This man I have disappears under the pretense of needing coffee at the hotel lobby or taking a walk when I'm tired. I'm sure he's doing something.
What is "managable"?
I've been thinking about giving an ultimatum to a woman I know. She's in a meantime/rebound situation but is taking things very slowly. She also needs to put some opportunities in place. I used to date her and want her back to be happy. I can give her what she needs with little risk to what she wants. The ultimatum is she'd have to cut off ocmmunication with someone she's still in contact with. Any men have advice for this situation?
Man's advice:
Women who want opportunities are ripe for ultimatums to be made but be careful you do get what you wish for which might be a woman wanting you for the wrong reason. A woman in the same position willing to lose you but doesn't want to lose you; now that's a different story. Don't ask her to give up communicating unless you think the guys a threat.
Savannah,
When you let someone know you're thinking it all over and weighing the options what response do you usually get. I'd think if I did that someone would feel their time had come. Do people feel that way when you do this? I ultimatum and have NEVER gotten what I wanted I guess it's not working for me either.
Friend who wants to help woman with dilemma. The only dilemma is the one you're having. If the woman/your friend wants more she'll look for it. I know what you're saying here and it's probably frustrating for your friend too but telling the man to dig deeper as you put it, when it's not your man, sounds like too much for me to think about. The man is who he is and if he thinks he needs to dig deeper and can then he will and if he can't... he'll either lose out or she'll concede. As far as the not so great guy...that's where being a friend comes in. I'd concentrate more on just how that guy may not be the right choice but don't pit the two against each other. She'll find reasons to go for the one that isn't nice...it's natural human behavior much of the times in devil advocate games.
Savannah Jones
Managable person:
Ahh what is managable is up to you. It doesn't sound like this is okay with you and don't get me wrong, I don't think it is and I'm pretty sure it's happened to me as well a time or two. I think if a person can disclose the real relationship and what it really is everyone would understand and can make informed decisions. I know at times I'd think something like this and it would come to fruition that contact was being made at times when it shouldn't have. It's that both parties are taking part and you never know if the other party has been told by your guy that you exist. Point is you do exist and I know for me...leaving my kids for a weekend away is no easy task and can be expensive, I wouldn't like thinking I went to all of this trouble and the guy was off making connections or maintaining them while off with me or while I was in the shower or something. I don't think you're managing this and that's really your guide. Sanity to me is everything and relationships are work but they don't have to make you think you're losing your mind or cause you to chase your tail looking for evidence.
What I mean by managed is there may be a long standing family situataion and the woman may still have connections with the man's kids and family. That makes sense that the woman may still be around but boundaries need to be put in place about how arrangements are made and with whom, when and such. When in doubt turn the tables and ask how your guy would feel if you _____. Something tells me if he said it was okay, it wouldn't necessarily be the truth it might be in defense of his own actions more than wanting it to happen to him.
Savannah Jones
Comment before my responses:
By the time I tell someone I'm thinking some things over, it's probably made clear that I have some decisions to make. I usually preface my statements with things that soften things. For example, I might say I want you to know that I want this to work, I'm thinking some things over to figure out what I can give or I'm thinking over what you said and have some decisions to make. I try to reassure if I feel it isn't going to be so negative.
Savannah Jones
Ran into my old girlfriend. She looked great and we talked for a long time. Her date walked up and she didn't introduce me or my child. Usually I introduce myself but I didn't. I heard him walk away with her and say him or me. I haven't had anything to do with her why ultimatum her?
past girlfriend isn't happy with a man that cares about her. she can't get the reparte that she had with me. Her child contacted me through my child and told me he missed having me around. I can't find anyone like her and want to be with her. I don't know if she'll give up the other man and do I ultimatum or start slow?
I won the ultimatum game and wish I hadn't. I got married when I moved out of my then boyfriend's home. Everything that stood in the way of us getting married, stood in the way of us while married. If I hadn't ultimatumed to move out, he wouldn't have gotten married to me. Now everytime you want something from him you have to threaten and do the either or thing. FYI
You need to do your homework when you're dating. If you ask questions about someone and their problems in their first marriage ask how come they got married. I'll bet many got married on an ultimatum. It's one reason why I run from those now.
Lady if you think you won the ultimatum game and you have to give the either/or now everytime you want something, then you didn't win at all.
If you get what you want by an ultimatum then you didn't win. I don't care who you are and what pretty assets you have. You can't win by a threat. You win a man who is scared of the truth which is he didn't want to marry you unless threatened to do so. I don't see why women see this as winning.
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